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Second
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Sep 2006
Location: Ontario
Posts: 27 |
Keeping the Club in OCA Teams
For competitions that do not lead to a National, ie Colts/Trophy, Intermediates, Silver Tankard, The Challenge, why not bring in a rule that all team members must play regularly in a league in the Club they're representing. They don't have to play on the same team in club, but must all play in club.
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12-30-11 02:20PM |
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SPMFromPCC
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Registered: Jun 2007
Location:
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Here in the States, that is the rule for our Club Nationals. All members of a team must be "dues-paying, league-playing" members of the same club to be eligible. Very carefully worded that way in the USCA rulebook.
The setup's not the same up north, is it?
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12-30-11 02:31PM |
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Second
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Sep 2006
Location: Ontario
Posts: 27 |
Most clubs have an OCA Membership, this allows a player to represent them in OCA events, but not participate in league games.
The Dominion Club Championship is totally separate, where you must play together as a team in a club league.
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12-30-11 02:48PM |
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J-Ho
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I'd be willing to give something a try. Numbers have been consistently dwindling down over the last 10-15 years. Something has to be done to reverse this trend!
JH
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12-30-11 04:00PM |
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Gerry
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I'm not sure tightening the restrictions on these events will have the effect of increasing entries like you believe.
Many teams use events like the Colts as a stepping stone to the Tankard and limiting this opportunity will hasten the decrease in entries.
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12-30-11 10:17PM |
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Curling Dave
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Location: Brampton
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There may be an initial drop in the number of teams until club teams realize they have a chance to win a patch at these events. Club pride is critical to the future success of curling and club teams participating and winning OCA events increases club pride. Teams made up of one member from a club and three other people who just joined as a OCA member does nothing to increase club pride. I agree with Second's thought process. If it doesn't go to a National event, club teams from league playing members only!
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12-31-11 10:14AM |
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Second
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Sep 2006
Location: Ontario
Posts: 27 |
With respect to Colts and The Challenge, I believe the purpose of these events is to introduce club curlers to competative curling. Therefore what's wrong with having to support the club you're representing by being an active member.
If you want to prepare your Tankard team for playdowns, there are plenty of OCT, WCT, and cashspiel events.
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12-31-11 11:56AM |
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Unregistered
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quote: Originally posted by Second
With respect to Colts and The Challenge, I believe the purpose of these events is to introduce club curlers to competative curling. Therefore what's wrong with having to support the club you're representing by being an active member.
If you want to prepare your Tankard team for playdowns, there are plenty of OCT, WCT, and cashspiel events.
This is a great response to Gerry's post and it hits the nail on the head. We already see competitive players encroaching into the Dominion set up because their rules are incredibly vague.
If we had a Colts type event in BC, I would agree that it should be strictly for club league teams. Teams wishing to be more competitive have those other outlets/events with which to develop. And if they are true (the operative word) club teams as well, then they can also enter events like the Colts.
But the key is also getting the word out and if there's one thing the asssociations seem to be lacking in its promotion and getting the word out. Beyond a website that is.
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12-31-11 12:48PM |
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Gerry
CZ Founder
Registered: Sep 2002
Location: London, Ontario
Posts: 4002 |
Dave, I wish there were more curlers like you guys, you spiel together out of your club, play spiels, etc. I just don't know if times have changed too much and most people just want to curl their league games and do their thing. Maybe it will work, but I'm concerned if it doesn't that a change like this might do more to hurt the competitive curling ladder we have in Ontario.
There's a loosely classified tiers of playdowns in Ontario, with the A (Tankard), B (Colts) and C (Challenge/Dominion) tiers of events. If the Colts is further restricted, then you may further divide the top and bottom. The OCA does a great job giving everyone opportunities to play events at their own level.
Colts -- This event has none of the so-called elite. IF you qualified for a provincial Tankard or have won the Colts in the past, you are not eligible for this event. The teams are good teams who do tend to spiel some and make a bit of a name for themselves, but just because you see them a lot, it doesn't make them elite.
Challenge -- Team are allowed a certain amount of crest winning players and while this might need a review, I believe it is a great format to allow further development of the sport. One way is to encourage all new teams, another is for experienced players to bring their friends and clubmates along. Both will work and maybe restricting this event to 1 zone badge winner would lower this problem? What we see here is teams listed under their skip and all of a sudden they're an elite team because of their name brand.
Dominion -- Rules are set across the country for eligibility and this leads to problems. The rule about having only one player who's been to a provincial can be very restricting in some places and very open in others and for an event like this, the rules are perfect as is. Play together in your club, win the club championship. In Ontario, Greg Balsdon is a club-curler, he plays regularly in the Richmond Hill league and even volunteers his own time to organize the league.
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12-31-11 01:29PM |
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Second
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Sep 2006
Location: Ontario
Posts: 27 |
The purpose of this suggestion is to increase participation in these Provincial events at the club level. It has nothing to do with being an "elite" player (either real or perceived). Anyone currently eligible in these events is still eligible. It would just mean that rather than players from 2, 3, or 4 clubs forming one team, you could have as many as four teams entering the event. I believe this would only help, not hurt the competative curling situation.
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12-31-11 03:08PM |
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J-Ho
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Registered: Jan 2005
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quote: Originally posted by Gerry
I'm not sure tightening the restrictions on these events will have the effect of increasing entries like you believe.
Many teams use events like the Colts as a stepping stone to the Tankard and limiting this opportunity will hasten the decrease in entries.
Respectfully disagree Gerry. It might inspire a few more teams to participate since they don't feel the zone is stacked with a few super-parachute teams. Let's face it, with the exception of the Tankard, every single provincial derives its dollars from the participators. OCA shouldn't be worried about teams using events like "Colts" as a competitive stepping stone, they should be looking at generating as much involvement from participating teams as possible. If the competition becomes watered, so be it.
JH
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12-31-11 03:25PM |
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Guest
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Feb 2005
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quote: Originally posted by Second
The purpose of this suggestion is to increase participation in these Provincial events at the club level. It has nothing to do with being an "elite" player (either real or perceived). Anyone currently eligible in these events is still eligible. It would just mean that rather than players from 2, 3, or 4 clubs forming one team, you could have as many as four teams entering the event. I believe this would only help, not hurt the competative curling situation.
You are presuming that players who could not form a team with others from different clubs would form another team within their club. This may not be the case, they could just say, Screw it, and not even enter.
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12-31-11 06:29PM |
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Second
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Sep 2006
Location: Ontario
Posts: 27 |
quote: Originally posted by Guest
You are presuming that players who could not form a team with others from different clubs would form another team within their club. This may not be the case, they could just say, Screw it, and not even enter.
Possibly, however, in my club there are a number of players interested in OCA events (some with patches) who would jump at the chance to play with an experienced, competitive player, but are not going to enter a team on thier own. Also it's very frustrating to ask someone about entering an event, and be told they're already playing with whoever from another club.
I don't think being an active club member to participate in Provincial (not National) events is such a radical idea.
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12-31-11 07:42PM |
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jamcan
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Sep 2002
Location: vernon bc
Posts: 2340 |
quote: Originally posted by J-Ho
Respectfully disagree Gerry. It might inspire a few more teams to participate since they don't feel the zone is stacked with a few super-parachute teams. Let's face it, with the exception of the Tankard, every single provincial derives its dollars from the participators. OCA shouldn't be worried about teams using events like "Colts" as a competitive stepping stone, they should be looking at generating as much involvement from participating teams as possible. If the competition becomes watered, so be it.
JH
Excellent post J-Ho. True, the competition could become 'watered' as you put it. But for how long? The price of getting more curlers to develop is to accept that the new competitive players aren't going to be as good-initially-as those that are experienced.
And that is the key word IMO-initially. They need the time to develop and gain experience. And within a short time (depending upon one's own perception of what is short versus long) you have more overall depth in your talent pool.
I'm not convinced the Ontario model with its unofficial A, B and C tiers is the way to go. IMO the emphasis the past 15 years of creating the 'elite' myth has likely caused more harm than good to our sport. But I do agree with the idea that tightening rules for club teams in the events discussed in this thread is a good one. It will, if promoted properly, generate more interest, participation and some fun inter-club competitiveness.
And theres the rub (to mis-quote Shakespeare). It must be promoted. Efforts must be made at all levels to get the word out that its fun to enter and compete. And that if you lose, its not the end of the world. Its that you competed, gave it your best and took part that matters.
IMO we've all been so wrapped up in fretting over who will wear the Maple Leaf at the Olympics and then winning gold that we've lost sight of this most important part of our game. As much as we like to puff out our chests over World stage victories, its time we got back to basics and celebrated all those teams who try-win or lose.
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01-01-12 01:39PM |
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Guest
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Feb 2005
Location: .
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Re: Keeping the Club in OCA Teams
quote: Originally posted by Second
For competitions that do not lead to a National, ie Colts/Trophy, Intermediates, Silver Tankard, The Challenge, why not bring in a rule that all team members must play regularly in a league in the Club they're representing. They don't have to play on the same team in club, but must all play in club.
Your proposed change is difficult to enforce and getting the OCA involved in club league vigilance is problematic too.
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01-01-12 02:05PM |
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Unregistered
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Re: Re: Keeping the Club in OCA Teams
quote: Originally posted by Guest
Your proposed change is difficult to enforce and getting the OCA involved in club league vigilance is problematic too.
What you say is somewhat true. However, like golf, we have a code of abiding by the rules and calling our own infractions when we make them. In short, curling has an HONOUR system that is an ingrained part of its make up.
We need to relish that about our sport. Cheating, or rule violations, is to be considered unacceptable and frowned upon. Curlers who would cheat the system just to gain a hollow victory should not be considered winners, but LOSERS. any club that would condone and support such an action by its members should also be considered the same.
There is a great allegory in a story about the classic golf rivalry between Arnold Palmer and Jack Nicklaus. At a Major event there was a Palmer fan heckling Nicklaus in an attempt to throw him off his game so his hero, Palmer, could win.
Palmer went into the crowd, found the fan and told him to stop. He told the fan that as much as he wanted to win and beat Nicklaus, he would not accept doing it that way.
Palmer lost that day. But he did it honestly and with class and added to the legend that is the man. We have class, we have to remain that way-all of us-and honour a belief that is a huge part of our game.
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01-01-12 05:35PM |
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J-Ho
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Registered: Jan 2005
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Regarding policing eligibility, there hasn't been a problem in the past doing so (from what I have seen) and I don't see how this format would be any different...
JH
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01-01-12 07:46PM |
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Curling Dave
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Location: Brampton
Posts: 204 |
I have been reading and thinking about the various opinions submitted. I have been swayed to agree that the Colts should stay the same. That is, teams can be made up of members from various clubs as it already has many restrictions on it already. However, I agree with Second that Intermediates, Silver Tankard, etc could and should be limited to members playing on teams within the same club. They only go to Provincials and they are really fun events to enter and try.
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01-02-12 09:55AM |
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J-Ho
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quote: Originally posted by SendInTheClowns
This would be a lot more then some minor checking up. How do you define being a regular member? Listed on a team lineup? How many games can they miss? Will you be there for the OCA taking attendance each week?
Guys know when players are regular members of a club and when they are not. I've personally witnessed curlers go to officials to inform them of teams that are playing with ineligible players (both blatantly and by accidental oversight) during events like the OCA Men's Challenge. I see this being no different. If the OCA doesn't want to mess with current eligibility formats, then maybe they can try this as a new OCA event? Or take an event like the Colts and do a two year trial like they did with the weighted zone concept and if they see positive participation results, create an event from that??
JH
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01-02-12 09:55AM |
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lolar3288
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Location: Burlington
Posts: 638 |
I'm not sure you would get more teams. Out of Club events seem to be less and less popular. Even district spiels are facing falling numbers and OCA events seem to have little meaning to the majority of club curlers.
Part of this maybe that the better curlers do not want to take newer curlers into outside spiels so the newer people don't get to experience curling in other clubs. When they move up the ladder in ability they have no interest in going out of club.
I know it was a pain, but when we had club rankings and rules governing who could play lead and second, it got more people interested in out of club curling so developed a base of players.
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01-02-12 04:35PM |
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J-Ho
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Second had a great idea about resurrecting the Governor Generals (or was that my idea?) and applying this eligibility format to that. I think that would be a great idea! Have the Silver Tankard as is and make the GG's more of a club level competition.
JH
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01-02-12 05:13PM |
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Guest
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Feb 2005
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quote: Originally posted by J-Ho
Guys know when players are regular members of a club and when they are not. I've personally witnessed curlers go to officials to inform them of teams that are playing with ineligible players (both blatantly and by accidental oversight) during events like the OCA Men's Challenge. I see this being no different. If the OCA doesn't want to mess with current eligibility formats, then maybe they can try this as a new OCA event? Or take an event like the Colts and do a two year trial like they did with the weighted zone concept and if they see positive participation results, create an event from that??
JH
And I've personally witnessed this type of "officiating" go horribly wrong when incorrect and unsubstabntiated allegations are made at a competition.
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01-02-12 06:23PM |
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curlerbroad
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Registered: Feb 2004
Location: Toronto
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Good thoughts all. Maybe expand for some of the Ontario Competitions to "players must be active members of the same curling club".
Even club curlers don't bonspiel with their league teams...they may be all skips but because they also like playing together they get together to play outside of the club.
You are going to have clubs who have super curlers at all levels and others perhaps not so much. However, I do believe that every club needs to ensure that new members are welcome and can curl. It may mean turning away a rental league (which I know means $$$) to free up some time but the game needs to grow or it will fade away.
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01-03-12 08:43AM |
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Guest
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Feb 2005
Location: .
Posts: 1844 |
Re: Re: Re: Keeping the Club in OCA Teams
quote: Originally posted by Unregistered
There is a great allegory in a story about the classic golf rivalry between Arnold Palmer and Jack Nicklaus. At a Major event there was a Palmer fan heckling Nicklaus in an attempt to throw him off his game so his hero, Palmer, could win.
Palmer went into the crowd, found the fan and told him to stop. He told the fan that as much as he wanted to win and beat Nicklaus, he would not accept doing it that way.
Palmer lost that day. But he did it honestly and with class and added to the legend that is the man. We have class, we have to remain that way-all of us-and honour a belief that is a huge part of our game.
Do you have a source on this Nicklaus - Palmer story because it sounds more like an urban myth?
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01-03-12 09:22AM |
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duct_tape
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Jan 2004
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Posts: 1441 |
Honestly, I think the level of competition in the existing playdowns is fine for what they are supposed to accomplish. Limiting the entries to teams that are made up of only club members will do nothing apart from killing off the existing playdowns even faster.
The Dominion is a "Club Only" format which works very well. However, it's not a voluntary sign up like the other playdowns. You earn your spot to play, and you're expected to play if you win your club. My guess is that's why it's entries are much higher than other comparable competitions.
The Challenge is meant as an introduction for club teams to competitive play, and it does that well. The competition level is not much different than your average good club teams, and without a regional to worry about it's not very time consuming either.
Colts is used as a stepping stone for the "B" Competitive teams to play each other in a playdown setting and gain experience to eventually become "A" Competitive teams. You would expect the level of competition to be decent here, but not as high as the full Men's playdown. Furthermore, Club teams are still capable of winning the colts with the current format, so there's no need to change it.
Likewise, the Silver Tankard is also winnable by totally in-club entries... because of the two team format, it's usually easiest to build an entry from your own club because not many people are willing to pay a membership to play silver tankard.
The problem with playdown entries dropping is two things:
1) People don't play out of club as much anymore, playdown or bonspiel. New curlers may not be aware of how much fun some spiels can be. It may help for clubs to start pushing the idea of going out and playing a spiel or two a year. I have no idea how much it'll help, but it can't hurt.
2) Intimidation: People who have only ever played in-club equate a playdown of any caliber to what they'd see on TV. In reality a lot of them are capable of winning a patch in something like the Challenge. The OCA needs to do a better job of making the development playdowns like the Challenge more visible to the average club player that might actually play in it.
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