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Curling Canada has a published policy that Scotties and Brier finals are 10 ends played minimum. If teams keep violating that policy and concede early, how do you think TSN and other broadcasters will react? What will that do for TV contracts, which are important source of revenue for the sport that obviously needs the money?

Curling needs to grow. We can't keep clinging on to the familiar past forever. We have to embrace whatever it takes to take the sport to the next level.

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quote:

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Originally posted by CurlingWatcher1
The problems with Curling are a result of general economic decline and can't be fixed with "changing the game for the sake of change"

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I can't believe this forum is actually getting worse.

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While the 3rd end was the key, there were lots of other half shots. Did you hear Brad's comments to the front end as they stood on the side in the 8th waiting Mouat to throw his last rock? Brad said "sorry boys. embarrassing "" This loss was 90% his to own and he did. Class act.

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quote:

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Originally posted by misty1
Just shows how funny this sport is too. Retornaz was an inch away from making the final yesterday. Now he ends up with nothing .

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quote:

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Originally posted by CurlingWatcher1


Gushue said in post game interview that the ice was straighter than he expected.

Blatantly meaning that it changes from practice.

Thats an accusation of corruption....what else can it possibly be?

Maybe Scotland was so perfect because they had perfect real time insider knowledge of ice, while Gushue was left to guess.

Thats what Gushue said over and over gain throughout the tournament.

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quote:

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Originally posted by bpm
I can't believe this forum is actually getting worse.

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quote:

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Originally posted by bpm
I can't believe this forum is actually getting worse.

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From what I understand, league curlers can barely play 7 ends within the timeslot allotted. More often they can only play 6 ends, and only the fastest most efficient club curlers can play 8 full ends.

In other words, if we change the rule of curling so running opposition out of stones is now illegal, it won't affect how most club curlers play anyway, since it doesn't seem like they ever had enough time to play enough ends to actually run their opposition out of stones.

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Here's an example of a stalemate trap in chess.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jaFAUwdv1jw

Black's army is overpowering White, and it seems like a win by Black is inevitable. Realizing that White is going to lose, White set up a stalemate trap and put themself in the corner defenseless with absolutely no legal move.

Black was one move away from a win by checkmate, but instead Black blundered and the game ended in a draw because of stalemate.

Imagine if we can do that in curling. Einarson is up by 6 vs Jones in 10th end of 2023 Scotties final, and Jones tries to set up traps for Einarson, who must be careful not to make illegal takeouts, and at the same time not to give up a 6-ender. That would be so entertaining to watch.

Curling is a cerebral sport, so watching the 10th end with this rule would be so much better than watching it under the current rule where Einarson just has to hit-hit-hit mindlessly bang-bang-bang to win.

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Here's an Eric Rosen compilation video of his famous stalemate trap.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YB_LLivPlY8

Today, this is an accepted part of chess. Most experienced chess players wouldn't say that the better player with the larger army is being "punished" when the game ends as a draw due to a stalemate. It's not a "punishment" when the clearly superior side still has to think and execute carefully to earn the win.

Historically, stalemates had been a win, a loss, or outright illegal, and today most people believe that making it a draw when you run your opposition out of legal moves makes for the best most cerebral form of chess.

I would argue that making it illegal in curling to run your opposition out of stones also makes for the best most cerebral form of curling.

Last edited by curlingclips on 04-10-23 at 04:28PM

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Not sure where you've heard this from, but completing 8 ends of curling in 2 hours is very doable and very normal.

Contrary to what most people believe, its the late starting (starting to walk onto the ice @ the top of the hour vs throwing the 1st rock) and slow front ends that I find slow down game play, not the skips ...

The lead of who's team scored shouldn't be helping to clear rocks. He finds his 1 rock and gets into the hack, ready to throw...

There's sooo much time wasted between ends in league play.

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quote:

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Originally posted by lixit74
Not sure where you've heard this from, but completing 8 ends of curling in 2 hours is very doable and very normal.

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I would argue that making it illegal in curling to run your opposition out of stones also makes for the best most cerebral form of curling.

Last edited by curlingclips on 04-10-23 at 03:58PM

It’s really too bad that you (Clips)don’t actually Curl. You see in the curling world probably about 95 % of the population are really good people and many,many of them become lifelong friends. On the other hand if you are a jerk and do not fit in the phone does not ring in the fall when teams are being formed so ultimately the bad apples are weeded out. This is where you come in…you wouldn’t last a week around the club with your absolutely insane insistent on changing the rules and ridiculous views on a game you do not even play.We used to have “Manitoba Legend” posting crap before but at least he curled and knew the game.Please take up another sport you may be more knowledgeable about…just think you could eliminate 2nd base in baseball or fix the kick off returns in the NFL..all kinds of possibilities..and please no 8 page comebacks..no one cares.

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I can also justify making it illegal to run your opposition out of stones using Spirit of Curling, which says "Curlers play to win, but never to humble their opponents".

I would argue that winning by running your opposition out of stones is basically humbling your opponent, so we should make it illegal because it violates Spirit of Curling, which is arguably the most important principle of the sport.

There! Simple as that!

Here's an illustrative example. We all know that the gold medal game at World Men's must be played to a minimum of 8 ends. Even if the score is 20-0 after 7, that 8th end must still be played to its completion, since WCF rule R11(a) does not allow teams to concede earlier.

Did you know that R11(a) explicitly also doesn't allow early concession even if the team is out of stones? Go look it up!! R11(a) says that even if the score is 30-0 after 7, that 8th end must still be played to its completion, even though there's no mathematical chance to tie the game, since you can only score a maximum of 24 points in 3 ends!

How is that not the utmost humbling of your opponent to run them out of stones and force them to play the 8th end even though they're already mathematically lost? How is that not a violation of the Spirit of Curling???

That's why I propose that we should make it illegal to run your opposition out of stones!

So if you're up 23-0 with hammer in 7th, it's now illegal to score a deuce. You can still take a single, but a deuce would put you at 25-0 with 3 ends to go. That would mean that your opposition will be out of stones, but must still play the 8th end anyway due to R11(a). That is humiliating, a violation of the Spirit of Curling, so let's not do that, and let's make it illegal to score a deuce.

You can still score your one, so now you're up 24-0 without hammer in 8th. Now, for the rest of the game, you're not allowed to take out any stone, and must defend a 24-point lead using guards, draws, freezes, and taps to prevent an 8-ender.

If you can prevent an 8-ender without using takeouts, you win.

I would argue that this is what Spirit of Curling really means. I would argue that scoring a deuce in 7 to run your opposition out of stones is a violation of Spirit of Curling.

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The more you try and make every single game look similar by limiting possible outcomes the less compelling the sport will be. There is a reason essentially all sports allow close games and routs: variety. Micro-managing any sport so that every game must conform to a narrow range of possible outcomes won't make it more exciting. I think we are seeing this with mixed doubles which has not blown up in viewership popularity the way people thought in 2018...and I think it's because the games are too similar and boring. But beyond that, a curling game doesn't exist in a vacuum any more than an end does; it exists in the context of a tournament, a season and a career. Brad Gushue getting blown out in the world final didn't make for the most exciting game but it makes his history more interesting.

Of course there's an even more obvious answer: you can't grow a sport where the rules are so complicated no one can follow them.

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quote:

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Originally posted by oliviertoisel
you can't grow a sport where the rules are so complicated no one can follow them.

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Last edited by curlingclips on 04-11-23 at 02:50PM

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As a small aside, here's a fun clip of the greatest chess player of all time Magnus Carlsen falling into a stalemate trap made famous by Eric Rosen, who is the person commentating. It's a wholesome content even if you don't know chess, and it also show how a simple principle like "stalemate=draw" can create interesting ways to play the game.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFiim8lFS2A

Despite having a clearly superior army, Black did not win. White, left with only defenseless King on the board, set up a stalemate trap, and Black falls for it and the game ends as a draw.

If chess had kept to its old ways and says "stalemate=win", the game would become dumb and less cerebral.

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quote:

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Originally posted by oliviertoisel
The more you try and make every single game look similar by limiting possible outcomes the less compelling the sport will be. There is a reason essentially all sports allow close games and routs: variety. Micro-managing any sport so that every game must conform to a narrow range of possible outcomes won't make it more exciting. I think we are seeing this with mixed doubles which has not blown up in viewership popularity the way people thought in 2018...and I think it's because the games are too similar and boring. But beyond that, a curling game doesn't exist in a vacuum any more than an end does; it exists in the context of a tournament, a season and a career. Brad Gushue getting blown out in the world final didn't make for the most exciting game but it makes his history more interesting.

Of course there's an even more obvious answer: you can't grow a sport where the rules are so complicated no one can follow them.

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Originally posted by myhouse911
I'm still confused how regular mixed curling did not make it into the OG yet mixed dubs did

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Last edited by curlingclips on 04-11-23 at 03:31PM

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What do networks do when Tennis matches end early/rain delay etc: They show either a) other matches happening that day or b) previous matches. Since they have access to this.
Baseball games: Other games, highlights of other games, previous days sports highlights...lots of options.

I'm not sure this incessant need to come up with completely ignorant and asinine "ideas" if we can even call them that.

It's pretty simple. Let the game grow and develop through a more natural pathway, as it has and continues to do. If a game ends early there are multiple options of what to do within the time slot. Unlike other sports, curling will NOT go over their allotted time slot, we can thank the time clock for this. No need for this 'not allowed to run teams out of rocks' nonsense.

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quote:

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Originally posted by myhouse911
No need for this 'not allowed to run teams out of rocks' nonsense.

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I personally don't like the tick rule, even though it is needed for the top level of the sport. Just look @ Edin in the quarter final against Gushue. He elected to try a raise triple blank attempt rather than draw the 8 foot for a point. Scoring would have put him down 2 without playing 8. The goat felt that the tick rule wouldn't allow his team to outscore the opponent 3-1 in a 3 end game. (give up 1, blank, take 3, steal 1.) @ that top level, its still game over. He essentially ran out of rocks when he was down 2 points after 7 ends...

Ultimately, the decision making process has to do with what the fans want vs what's best for the curlers... The fans want every game to go down to the last shot with no certainty of outcome. The players want the opposite. The game is a very different animal @ the top level vs the club level...

I've heard an idea of giving 2 points to a stone that's touching the button for scoring... This idea would all but eliminate blank end and it allows teams to come back from 2 down with for a win. It would also be VERY easy to adopt @ the club level. Drawing the button for most club teams is an event all in of itself...

This being said, until the game changes to 8 ends for championship play, nothing else should (or will) change. This is the next logical step for the game for the next Olympic cycle.

Once this happens, the Grand Slams will try out the next rule change & we'll see what happens from there...

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Agreed - 8 ends is the way to go, for all events. And no stupid Curling Canada rules that force teams to play all 8, even though they don't actually enforce it at all.
I'm not anti-no tick rule. I just think it's silly to punish teams/players for being too good at shots. I get it, i'm just indifferent to it.
If they wanted to make it more difficult for teams leading at the end to still win, instead of the no tick rule, they could have just made it that no rock can be removed from play until after the 5th rock has been thrown similar to mixed doubles.

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quote:

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Originally posted by myhouse911
they could have just made it that no rock can be removed from play until after the 5th rock has been thrown similar to mixed doubles

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Last edited by curlingclips on 04-11-23 at 04:57PM

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^ Please stop quoting me. If I could stay permanently logged in here, I would never see your posts. However, sadly, this isn't the case.

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