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Gerry
CZ Founder

Registered: Sep 2002
Location: London, Ontario
Posts: 4002

OCA Competitions Review

Note to ALL ONTARIO CURLERS

I have been commissioned by the Ontario Curling Association (OCA) to spearhead a committee to review ALL OCA COMPETITIONS.

Our mandate is simple:

Consult with all stakeholders including: players, coaches, officials, staff, Board, Zone Representatives, clubs, sponsors and spectators.
Review and suggest amendments in each of the competition streams with emphasis on fiscal responsibility and continued success of Ontario athletes.
Upon completion and Board approval provide a consultation plan that will allow for stakeholder review prior to implementation
Implement, in cooperation with the Operational team, the approved changes to the competitions.
I invite every Ontario curler who wishes to be heard, to either attend OCA Zone Meetings (dates and places below), write your issues directly to me (itetley@ontcurl.com) or feel free to post on the Curlingzone Forum.

If you do post, sign your name and club affiliation and/or your post may be deleted.

To read the entire message and see Zone meeting dates and competitions for review, read the blog here:
http://www.curlingzone.com/talk/?p=193

Warm Regards

Ian Tetley
OCA Chair Competitions Review Committee
itetley@ontcurl.com

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Old Post 04-20-15 02:53PM
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coltond
Harvey Hacksmasher

Registered: Apr 2014
Location: ottawa
Posts: 14

Well this one is simple and has been discussed for a long time, how about we start rewarding our teams that do well on the tour in men's and women's play with a direct entry to provincials. I would suggest adding an extra two spots on both the men's and women's side for whoever performs best on the tour. This would ensure you have your high level talent at provincials, and give teams no excuses not to quality( tour, play downs, challenge round). I also think it may be an interesting idea to try and implement a challenge round for juniors.

Thank you

Colton Daly
Ottawa Curling club
Men's curler

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Old Post 04-20-15 03:41PM
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Maybe consider adding playoffs to all of the smaller provincials

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Old Post 04-20-15 06:13PM
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Russ
Harvey Hacksmasher

Registered: Apr 2015
Location:
Posts: 17

I am not a fan of free passes to provincials. Teams should have to earn a berth by playing in OCA qualifiers (zones, regions or a variation on this)

Recent history proves that the top tour teams can be beaten. I think that adds to the excitement and drama of the preliminary events.

Having new teams win in Ontario also builds the provice's experience base. In the long run, that's a very good thing for the sport.

Finally, Qualifiers need to be played on acceptable ice. It is paramount that teams aren't being eliminated because of bad ice conditions.


A challenge round for juniors would be a big improvement

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Old Post 04-20-15 09:26PM
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curlerbroad
Super Rockchucker

Registered: Feb 2004
Location: Toronto
Posts: 2668

I think some hard questions may need to be asked about some of the competitions. Many of them especially on the women's side have very few entries or none at all. The zone reps need to go back to the club reps to find out why curlers are not entering the second tier events.

Someone once said to me that women would rather spend a Saturday playing in a bonspiel where they will have fun rather than an OCA zone playdown.

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Old Post 04-21-15 10:17AM
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lixit74
Harvey Hacksmasher

Registered: Mar 2015
Location: Canada
Posts: 38

Eliminate zone playdowns all together.

Men's, Women's & Juniors:
4x regionals (modified triple knockout) = 8 qualifiers
+ challenge round = 2 qualifiers.
+ 2x tour "winners" = 2 qualifiers
=12 team provincial

All other competitions:
4x regionals (true triple knockout) = 12 qualifiers.
=12 team provincial

If a 12 team round robin provincial is excessive, change to 2 pools of 6.

Neil Miller
Fergus Curling Club Games Director
Zone 12

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Old Post 04-21-15 10:45AM
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krisblonski
Knee-Slider

Registered: Aug 2013
Location: Canada
Posts: 9

It would be beneficial if the OCA outlined what exactly their objectives were in collecting these suggestions: Are you trying to increase general participation? Are you trying to increase the level/quality of play?

Just a couple general thoughts first:


  • I realize that this is partially out of the OCA’s control, but all events should be 8 ends
  • Someone else mentioned this, but OCA events really are poorly advertised / communicated
  • Certain ice standards should be met before allowing OCA events to occur at clubs. EVERYONE in each zone knows which ice is good and which is bad – it certainly wouldn’t take much research on your end to create a whitelist of “approved” clubs
  • To help clubs out, the OCA should provide some level of financial kick-back to the hosting clubs. Hopefully this encourages clubs to volunteer a little more, or to repeat as host more often. No one is saying that the kickback needs to be thousands of dollars, but perhaps a percentage of each team’s entry fee?
  • I REALLY like the zones/regions combination format (we lovingly call it the “zegion”). The Travelers Club Championship uses it and it’s fantastic. For those who are still confused, it’s pretty much your standard OCT double knockout to qualify for playoffs, single knockout in playoffs system. The reason I like it is simply because it gets rid of the regions (yet another weekend lost to curling) which saves time and money for everyone.


Specific event thoughts:

Travelers Club Championships
Fantastic event top to bottom. I’ve talked to many people who are in the same boat as myself and this is far and away their favourite event. An extremely minor detail, but my sole suggestion is that it should be clarified how teams are able to participate – not each club champion is determined equally and I know we’ve had drama two years in a row in our zone because one team interpreted the rules differently than another.

Tim Hortons Colts
I think this event specifically would benefit by combining the zones and regions together. I’d also like to see the event take a small step backwards and re-implement the player limitations, although make them a little more realistic and open to re-entry after 5-10 years.

Men’s Tankard
The suggestions to this one really depend on if you care about increasing participation, or just focused on the best teams. If you want more people, $240 is too much money as an entry fee for an event that provides nothing back to (most) the players. So either lower the cost, or perhaps give the players something back, especially those who know they likely have no chance of winning.

If you just care about getting the best teams, then keep the price the same and combine the zones and regions (again, similar to Travelers). That’ll get you 8 winners. Then have a challenge round where the top X number of CTRS teams get free entry, as well as the 2nd place team in each zone/region. From that event, top 5 get entry into provs. Finally, your returning champion gets the last entry. This leaves you with 14 teams in the provincials. Run the provs the same way the junior nationals do with pools of 7 and you’re set.

Auto-births to provincials for CTRS teams is something that’s likely endlessly debateable. Glenn Howard’s performance last year during play-downs should illustrate some of the issues with just giving direct access to provincials. If you’re really obsessed with giving direct access to CTRS teams, then do 8 zone/region winners, 2 challenge round winners, 3 CTRS, and 1 returning champ.

Bantam Events
Really should rethink the requirement of a fully certified coach for zones. I’ve seen a lot of kids/teams get left out because they can’t manage to find a coach, or someone willing to plunk down the time and money. To me, bantam events should be about experience and exposing them to the competitive world, rather than training them to be curling killing machines. As a veteran of zone 13’s 24-team-sometimes-you-needed-club-playdowns bantam entry days, it’s horrifying to me to see that now they’re pulling in only 5 or 6 teams. It should be additionally concerning considering most of the 20-30 year olds I know who continue to play in club leagues after their junior years are the ones who participated in OCA events, regardless of their success.

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Old Post 04-21-15 11:13AM
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Curling Dave
Swing Artist

Registered: Apr 2006
Location: Brampton
Posts: 204

Hi Ian:

Thanks for taking this initiative. One of the challenges that needs to be resolved is the number of conflicts between competitions both within the OCA and between the OCA and TCA. I will illustrate with Zone 9:

The Fairfield Marriott Provincials conflicted with the Senior Men's Regions (result, a senior who is interested in promoting the sport by introducing the Fairfield Marriott to new curlers is potentially penalized by not being able to enter the Senior Competition).

The TCA Goldline Spiel conflicted with the Senior Men's Zones (negative implications for both events)

I don't have the exact details anymore as the 2014/2015 schedule is no longer on the OCA website but there were also conflicts with Intermediates, Colts and Silver Tankard (zones of one event conflicting with regions of another event).

By having conflicts you are forcing teams to choose which events to curl in rather than having the flexibility to go in all of them if they so choose.

I am also a proponent of going directly to regions given that the total participation of the zone is less than a pre-determined number (8, 10, 12, whatever).

Good luck with analyzing and recommending change.

Dave Furness
Chinguacousy Curling Club
Zone 9 and TCA member

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Old Post 04-21-15 01:02PM
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Gallan
Harvey Hacksmasher

Registered: Mar 2015
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 23

Hi Ian,

Looking for this type of feedback is a great idea.

In regard to junior playdowns, the average number of teams in any junior zone last year was about 3. Note that also includes some Bantam teams playing up in juniors. Several zones had less than 2 entries which means no zone was played at all. There is no doubt that in juniors, the numbers are pretty low with about 40 teams entering the playdowns (again, including some Bantam teams).

Allow me to propose the idea conceived in Quebec when they had a similar problem. Here is what it states on their web site:

"The qualifications for the Brosses Performances Junior Provincial Championship take place during four (4) pre-determined tournaments identified within the official Provincial Circuit calendar. All teams may take part in these tournaments but only teams duly registered for the qualification process may benefit from the free passes available at these tournaments for the Provincial Championship. In order to take part in the qualification process, teams must fill out the registration form and pay the required fees before december 1, 2015."

What an awesome idea! They use multiple events throughout the regular season to determine the teams that qualify for provincials. I believe there are currently only 3 events, the first 2 qualify 2 teams each and the final one fills in the final 4 spots. As a team, you have to pay your "I want to tryout for provs" fee and if you come first or second, you get your spot. Teams can still play in these events even if they are not trying out for provs - there is still money on the line. Of course, there is a huge benefit here that teams can have a crappy weekend or struggle with ice conditions and still get another kick at the can. I have talked to many other parents and juniors about this process and they always like the idea. I also understand that Quebec sought feedback from all stakeholders to carefully arrive at this system that is relatively new.

I think it would be feasible to have the 2 larger OJCT events "converted" to these provincial qualifying events with the final "last chance" qualifying event held on the weekend currently reserved for regions where the final 4 teams are determined. These last chance events could be split in 2 locations to have one cover regions 1 and 2 and the other regions 3 and 4. All teams trying out for provs are already willing to travel for regions today.

With the increasing number of Bantam OJCT events, the same process could be used there as well.

I am sure the folks over in Curling Quebec would be happy to share their implementation details with Ontario.

Regards,

Graham Allan
Huntley Curling Club
Zone 3

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Old Post 04-22-15 11:02AM
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watcher2
Harvey Hacksmasher

Registered: Mar 2015
Location:
Posts: 63

I agree with some sort of a grant to clubs hosting OCA events like play downs. As stated above, just help in covering costs.

There should also be some sort of ice standard because, to be kind, the ice at some clubs is more that substandard and this advantages lesser skilled teams. They get pass zones but get clobbered later on while a better team is out.

To host an OCA event a club has to pay staff and operating costs like energy costs. Every time our club hosted one of these events in the past, it was at a loss. As a Board member I have voted against hosting OCA events. No Board that is doing it's job can support something that is of no benefit, and in reality a financial liability to the Club.

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Old Post 04-23-15 09:24AM
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ngm
Swing Artist

Registered: Feb 2011
Location:
Posts: 272

Curling starts in October.

There's no reason why there can't be OCA events that end by Christmas.

The Marriott/Best Western Challenges and the two-team competition "Tankards" could easily be moved up.

Last edited by ngm on 04-24-15 at 01:06PM

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Old Post 04-24-15 01:03PM
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Gerry
CZ Founder

Registered: Sep 2002
Location: London, Ontario
Posts: 4002

Zone meetings are underway. If you have a suggestion and don't want to post here, please email it to me at gerry@curlingzone.com or to Ian Tetley at itetley@ontcurl.com

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Old Post 05-02-15 01:42AM
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J-Ho
Super Rockchucker

Registered: Jan 2005
Location:
Posts: 2418

Ian and Gerry:
I've decided to come out of CZ retirement. Here's my suggestion:

FOR ALL OCA COMPETITIONS:

-Eliminate the 16 zone alignment and make 8 zones. I suppose the easiest set-up would be to combine 1-2, 3-4, etc...

-Have four zone winners move on to the four regions.

-Eliminate the controversial "weighted zone" concept...You may have heard of me speak of this back in the day

SPECIFICALLY FOR MEN'S TANKARD/WOMEN'S SCOTIE:

-Expand the field by including the top 3 OCT money leaders. With the defending champ, this would make a field of 14. Have two pools with the top four teams advancing to a double-knockout playoff which culminates in a page playoff. That way, everyone gets to play and all games mid-week mean something!

FOR COLTS/TROPHY:

-Provincial FINALISTS in any adult OCA competition (excluding the Men's and Women's Challenge events and the Colts/Trophy competition) are prohibited from playing in the event for FIVE consecutive years from the time they participated in the final. (example: Curler "A" participated in the 2010 Intermediates during the 2009/2010 season, they cannot participate in Colts or Trophy until the 2015/2016 season).

-Provincial CHAMPIONS in any adult OCA competition (excluding the Men's and Women's Challenge and the Colts/Trophy competition) are prohibited from playing in the event for TEN consecutive years.

GOVERNOR-GENERAL COMPETITION RESURRECTION:

-Bring this back as a two-team event like the Silver Tankard, except both competing teams must be teams playing intac in a league at the club they are representing. This competition would be "open" so any team with any gender combination could participate.

Hope these suggestions help.
JH

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Old Post 06-19-15 11:58PM
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J-Ho
Super Rockchucker

Registered: Jan 2005
Location:
Posts: 2418

[QUOTE]Originally posted by J-Ho
[B]Ian and Gerry:
I've decided to come out of CZ retirement. Here's my suggestion:

FOR ALL OCA COMPETITIONS:

-Eliminate the 16 zone alignment and make 8 zones. I suppose the easiest set-up would be to combine 1-2, 3-4, etc...

-Have four zone winners move on to the four regions.

Just for clarification here. Each of the 8 zones would have 4 qualifiers instead of the 2 qualifiers we currently have. Regions 1-4 would still therefore have 8 participants. 4 from each zone.
JH(:

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Old Post 06-21-15 11:04AM
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