Registered: Apr 2016
Location:
Posts: 7

I played against a skip recently that delivered with a stabilizer. When calling ice, he would use the stabilizer to measure the distance away from the rock to place his broom for different situations (for example, he used the short width of the stabilizer as the basis for icing a normal hit, and the long length to ice a hack weight hit). Besides being strategically questionable, is this legal?

Rule R2 (i) states:

quote:

---

A stone may be measured only visually until the last stone of the end has come to rest, except to determine if a stone is in play, or, prior to playing the second, third, or fourth stone of an end, to determine if a stone is in the Free Guard Zone.

---

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Feb 2011
Location: Winnipeg
Posts: 1418

Perfectly legal, but what a terrible way to give ice.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Dec 2013
Location: Halifax
Posts: 59

What you describe sounds legal. I understand the rule as forbidding a measurement of which stone is shot (say) during the end, other than just by a visual inspection. Putting your broom or stabilizer or whatever on the ice near the stones is ok.

As someone who delivers with a stabilizer, I can say that it's a headache when playing skip not to have a broom at hand. You'll notice in the Brier this year, Richard Hart is using a stabilizer to deliver, which has been modified to include an entire broom (lots of stabilizers have an integral broom head, so you can clean the ice after you clean the rock, but his has that plus an entire stick out the other end, I guess so he can also sweep the house when Glenn Howard is delivering. Frankly it looks pretty unwieldy).

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Apr 2016
Location:
Posts: 7

I thought about it the same way, but wanted to double check since I'd never come across it in a game.

I guess it would only become an issue if he tried to use the stabilizer to measure distance from the pin or a ring.

However, this begs the question... if you're allowed to do this, then can you bring ruler on the ice (or tape a ruled sticker on a broom or stabilizer) to actually measure the amount of broom given each time. I feel like most people would think this goes against the spirit of the game, at the very least.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Apr 2014
Location: In the House
Posts: 608

quote:

---

Originally posted by jzwanzig
What you describe sounds legal. I understand the rule as forbidding a measurement of which stone is shot (say) during the end, other than just by a visual inspection. Putting your broom or stabilizer or whatever on the ice near the stones is ok.

As someone who delivers with a stabilizer, I can say that it's a headache when playing skip not to have a broom at hand. You'll notice in the Brier this year, Richard Hart is using a stabilizer to deliver, which has been modified to include an entire broom (lots of stabilizers have an integral broom head, so you can clean the ice after you clean the rock, but his has that plus an entire stick out the other end, I guess so he can also sweep the house when Glenn Howard is delivering. Frankly it looks pretty unwieldy).

---

__________________
"It is easy in the world to live after the world's opinion; it is easy in solitude to live after our own... but the great man is he who, in the midst of the crowd, keeps with perfect sweetness the independence of solitude." ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Dec 2014
Location:
Posts: 56

quote:

---

Originally posted by On The Nose

Hart does not sweep with his modified broom/stabilizer. As a Third, he is sweeping the front end stones - and he has a proper, regular broom with which he does that. He holds that same broom to give Howard the ice (and to sweep in the House) when Howard is throwing.

His modified broom/stabilizer is used only as a delivery device.

---

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Oct 2013
Location:
Posts: 559

I would say this is 100% illegal, and another example of how the curling rulebook is full of loopholes and vagueness. Everyone else has said it is legal because you are not measuring for shot. However, re-read the rule, nowhere does it say measuring for shot, it only says measuring, and with 100% certainty the use of the stabilizer as a guide is a form of measuring. Therefore by the letter of the rule, this is illegal. I would assume the intent of this was out outlaw measuring for shot, but since it is not worded as such, this still remains illegal in my eyes, and I would inform an official or league director to have this dealt with.

Now I do agree with others that strategically this is dumb, but that is not your question.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Apr 2016
Location:
Posts: 7

quote:

---

Originally posted by curlky
I would say this is 100% illegal, and another example of how the curling rulebook is full of loopholes and vagueness. Everyone else has said it is legal because you are not measuring for shot. However, re-read the rule, nowhere does it say measuring for shot, it only says measuring, and with 100% certainty the use of the stabilizer as a guide is a form of measuring. Therefore by the letter of the rule, this is illegal. I would assume the intent of this was out outlaw measuring for shot, but since it is not worded as such, this still remains illegal in my eyes, and I would inform an official or league director to have this dealt with.

Now I do agree with others that strategically this is dumb, but that is not your question.

---

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Sep 2011
Location:
Posts: 1064

quote:

---

Originally posted by curlky
I would say this is 100% illegal, and another example of how the curling rulebook is full of loopholes and vagueness. Everyone else has said it is legal because you are not measuring for shot. However, re-read the rule, nowhere does it say measuring for shot, it only says measuring...

---

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Apr 2016
Location:
Posts: 7

Thanks for your response!

quote:

---

the skip in question here is not measuring the stone, he is measuring his line, therefore this rule is not relevant. The play is legal sofar

---

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Mar 2009
Location:
Posts: 695

I would have to agree with Alan on this one. Maybe you should just sand the stones making his measurement irrelevant?

__________________
"He has all the virtues I dislike and none of the vices I admire"-Winston Churchill

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Apr 2016
Location:
Posts: 7

quote:

---

Originally posted by biterbar
I would have to agree with Alan on this one. Maybe you should just sand the stones making his measurement irrelevant?

---

Haha, I assure you it's already a rather ineffective technique.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jan 2005
Location: the Banana Belt
Posts: 990

It is perfectly legal. The rule cited means you can not formally measure a rock until all the rocks have been delivered and the end has concluded ( other than using a biter measure to determine if a rock is in the rings or in the free guard zone). He is not measuring rock proximity to the pin but using his delivery device as a standard of measure for broom placement. This method would be inconsistent at best and at most lead to more shots being missed as opposed to made.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Sep 2011
Location:
Posts: 1064

The intent of the "no measuring until the end" rule is to ensure that any "So, are we shot?" (or 2nd, 3rd, biting, etc) question is done on the basis of unaided visual only, no tools permitted, unless a Rules situation requires it (ie "is that stone in play or out?" or "is that stone in the FGZ?"). That is obvious due to the specific exceptions listed. You're not allowed to use anything other than your eyes to determine where a stone is in play until the end of the end.

This is to speed up the game by not taking a minute to drag out the measuring stick to answer the question, and to also reduce the likelihood of accidentally displacing a stone while trying to measure it (as is exceedingly likely when you are using a broom or other thing to measure).

Laying your stabilizer (or broom head) on the ice to establish "one stabilizer away from the stone for an outturn hit" isn't that. It's not measuring "Where on the ice is this stone?" it is determining your desired line.

In a timed game, it's your clock, use it how you like. In an untimed game, I could see a complaint if it was taking an excessive amount of time on every shot to do this. Likewise, if the way the skip is doing it is likely to damage the ice, that's covered under that rule.

But, if he's doing it without delaying the game unduly....carry on.

As the other skip, I'd be more than willing to show him the error of his ways by trying to set up situations where that hard measurement rule results in bad shotmaking, that's the best way to penalize the other skip, if that is really getting under your skin.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Apr 2016
Location:
Posts: 7

So I went ahead and contacted WCF to get an official answer. Here was their response:

quote:

---

Hi WCF!

I recently played in a game where the opposing skip used his stabilizer to mark off his broom placement for making ice calls. For example, once when he was throwing a hit on his last shot, he put the left edge of his stabilizer against the rock, and asked his vice to place the broom on the right edge.

Is this legal? The rule in question that I think would apply is R2 (i) from the October 2016 version of the rules of curling.

---

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Oct 2013
Location:
Posts: 559

quote:

---

Originally posted by AlanMacNeill

So if I were the official and you brought this to me, my ruling would, essentially, be "Suck it up, buttercup, he isn't violating a rule"

---

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Apr 2016
Location:
Posts: 7

quote:

---

Originally posted by curlky

And as far as what you would say, I would hope that whatever player you said those words would... well, lets just say I hope that it would end your officiating career.

---

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Mar 2009
Location:
Posts: 695

quote:

---

Originally posted by SharpestBroom


What's particularly intriguing is how I made it pretty clear that I was only asking out of curiosity, AND I posited the same point he made in my OP... I think this guy is projecting his spiteful nature onto me.

---

__________________
"He has all the virtues I dislike and none of the vices I admire"-Winston Churchill

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Sep 2011
Location:
Posts: 1064

quote:

---

Originally posted by SharpestBroom


What's particularly intriguing is how I made it pretty clear that I was only asking out of curiosity, AND I posited the same point he made in my OP... I think this guy is projecting his spiteful nature onto me.

---

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jan 2023
Location:
Posts: 1

The Curling Zone is a great way to learn about the different rules of the game, and it can also be a fun way to improve your skills. The zone is made up of a number of different bowls, each with its own set of rules. You can play in the zone for a variety of different purposes - from learning wordle how to curl your shot to improving your skills as a player. In addition, the zone is a great place to socialize and meet new people. It's also a great place to practice your skills, as there are many different challenges and games available to play.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Feb 2013
Location: British Columbia
Posts: 97

quote:

---

Originally posted by SharpestBroom


An interesting take, thanks for your input.

The use of a stabilizer as a guide is definitely measuring. The thing I'm not sure about is whether it would be considered the stone that is being measured. FWIW, I agree that I think it should be illegal. Like I said before, if this is legal, then it would be legal to carry a ruler out and measure your distance to the broom on every shot. I don't think many people would think that is legal.

This is turning out to be quite an interesting quandary. People who I've asked at my local curling club are split 50/50 on this as well. Maybe I should just ask the guy. Maybe he knows about the rule and thinks he's interpreting it right, and maybe he just doesn't know about the rule. I was surprised to find that many people I ask don't even know the measuring rule exists.

---

Last edited by Prawnpuller on 01-11-23 at 07:17PM

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Feb 2022
Location:
Posts: 9

'A stone may be measured only visually until the last stone of the end has come to rest, except to determine if a stone is in play, or, prior to playing the second, third, or fourth stone of an end, to determine if a stone is in the Free Guard Zone.'

Seems pretty clear to me. Now, could someone tell me what part of using a stopwatch, isn't measuring a stone? No mention of position and not velocity in the rule.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Feb 2023
Location:
Posts: 2

quote:

---

Originally posted by mariahcarey
The Curling Zone is a great way to learn about the different rules of the game, and it can also be a fun way to improve your skills. The zone is made up of a number of different bowls, each with its own set of rules. You can play in the zone for a variety of different purposes - from learning dream meanings how to curl your shot to improving your skills as a player. In addition, the zone is a great place to socialize and meet new people. It's also a great place to practice your skills, as there are many different challenges and games available to play.

---

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Apr 2023
Location:
Posts: 21

While the rule R2 (i) primarily addresses the use of measuring devices for determining the position of stones, it also includes a broader prohibition against using "devices or equipment to artificially improve a player's delivery or playing ability".
Using a stabilizer to measure the distance away from the rock to place his broom could potentially fall under this broader prohibition. It could be argued that the skip is using the stabilizer to artificially improve their ability to place the broom, rather than relying on their own skill and judgement. lol shot io

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Apr 2023
Location:
Posts: 5

Baseball fans are welcome to test their expertise in the fun game from immaculate grid. It's a unique version of the popular word game Wordle made just for MLB fans. To achieve a "IMMACULATE GRID" and foresee the difficulty in sport wordle mode, it is necessary to accurately estimate each point on the grid.

Last edited by drewbinsky on 07-18-23 at 04:23AM

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged