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Curlwalker
Hitting Paint
Registered: Jan 2015
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If Russia loses.....
Denmark beats Hungary...Russia is 3rd having beaten Germany and Hungary. If Hungary wins Germany is through on LSD because each has one loss one win. Probably.
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12-08-21 01:27PM |
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Curlwalker
Hitting Paint
Registered: Jan 2015
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DSC LSD
So DSC is the average of all the LSD shots minus a couple of the highest?
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12-08-21 01:40PM |
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curlingclips
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Oct 2019
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Re: DSC LSD
quote:
Originally posted by Curlwalker
So DSC is the average of all the LSD shots minus a couple of the highest?
That's the current WCF formula, yes. In practice they ignore two worst numbers, but if it's a small pool, they only ignore 1. I'm not aware of any WCF competition where the pool is that small, though.
It's a bit confusing because LSD in WCF is the sum of 2 measurements. DSC ignores the 2 worst measurements (which is not always the same as the 2 worst LSDs).
Last edited by curlingclips on 12-08-21 at 01:53PM
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12-08-21 01:47PM |
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curlingclips
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Registered: Oct 2019
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So, finally, we have:
RUS vs FIN, winner challenges USA.
KOR vs HUN, winner challenges AUS.
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12-08-21 02:49PM |
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curlingclips
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I just watched AUS for the first time (vs RUS). They're very talented team, could've beaten Christensen/Shuster for the bronze medal at 2019 WMDCC, but it looked like they still have the same weakness: only the male sweeps.
Teams have gotten far this way, of course. Skaslien/Nedregotten and Perret/Rios got bronze and silver in 2018, but that was 8 teams round robin. 2022 will have 10.
I think these tournaments can be very hard on the sweepers if there's no division of labor. Especially with 10 team round robin. Even more so for the double duty Olympians.
But lots of teams are successful with one sweeper, so maybe my hunch is entirely unfounded.
Last edited by curlingclips on 12-08-21 at 05:06PM
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12-08-21 05:04PM |
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oliviertoisel
Drawmaster
Registered: Feb 2021
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Very weak close out today from Korea. Just made almost nothing in the last 3 ends. Nice to see a new country make the Olympics, best result for the sport.
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12-09-21 12:15PM |
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Observer
Swing Artist
Registered: Apr 2016
Location: River Falls, WI, USA
Posts: 445 |
The US team beat Russia 6-4 to take the final Olympic mixed doubles spot.
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12-09-21 02:49PM |
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curlingclips
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Registered: Oct 2019
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I need to double check this once replay comes up, but not only did USA win without throwing last rock, I think they also win because of the prepositioned stone placed there before the first throw of the end.
I've seen teams scoring 1 using that "freebie" counter before, but this is the first one I've seen that wins them the game, and a spot at the Olympics.
//edit: yup, confirmed. USA won without throwing last rock, and without throwing the scoring rock. Pretty remarkable.
Last edited by curlingclips on 12-09-21 at 05:07PM
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12-09-21 02:55PM |
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nelski
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Oct 2004
Location: Twin Snowbanks
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quote:
Originally posted by curlingclips scoring 1 using that "freebie" counter
I hear ya. I watched the game on that Recast App and also, there was an interesting convo about there being no blank ends in MD - because you relinquish the hammer - so better to be forced. It is indeed a different game. Persinger was completely gutted after the win. She'd missed both shots on the 7th end (after stellar play until then) opening the door for the Russians, who then missed a free draw. She will need to regroup for Olympics - but I see the USA in the mix. I also watched John Morris cheering for his Aussie team (he coaches them) then shamelessly dropping his covid mask as soon as he realized he was on camera. Ah, accidental vanity. Aussies have had a long term plan for this (3 years they said in the post game interview), and were targeting the NEXT Olympics. So good for them.
__________________
Lots of major youth (<21) events. Nice for Murdoch... and us :-D.
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12-09-21 08:59PM |
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curlingclips
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I think GBR/SCO, SWE, SUI and NOR are way too strong at mixed doubles right now. It'd be quite an upset to have any other country get a medal.
But this is mixed doubles, and major upsets and crazy score lines happen. That's why I actually prefer mixed doubles to the 4-person game.
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12-09-21 09:25PM |
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oliviertoisel
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Upsets are nice but I can't watch much of the dull strategy and lack of precision that MD brings.
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12-09-21 10:30PM |
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johnnysmoke
Drawmaster
Registered: Nov 2002
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quote:
Originally posted by nelski
I hear ya. I watched the game on that Recast App and also, there was an interesting convo about there being no blank ends in MD - because you relinquish the hammer - so better to be forced. It is indeed a different game. Persinger was completely gutted after the win. She'd missed both shots on the 7th end (after stellar play until then) opening the door for the Russians, who then missed a free draw. She will need to regroup for Olympics - but I see the USA in the mix. I also watched John Morris cheering for his Aussie team (he coaches them) then shamelessly dropping his covid mask as soon as he realized he was on camera. Ah, accidental vanity. Aussies have had a long term plan for this (3 years they said in the post game interview), and were targeting the NEXT Olympics. So good for them.
That curling powerhouse Australia!
Who knew.
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12-10-21 08:57AM |
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curlingclips
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Registered: Oct 2019
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quote:
Originally posted by oliviertoisel
dull strategy
Mixed doubles is less strategy, more tactics, all execution. If you listen to interviews of people from 4-person curling who has tried mixed doubles, virtually all of them will say that they learned a lot and that it makes them be even better curlers, because they're forced to confront situations that they've always tried to avoid in 4-person curling. They actually have to learn how to solve all sorts of problems that they only see in 4-person game once in a blue moon.
I recommend giving this Weagle/Epping chat a listen. It talks about, among other things, their first time playing together, Weagle's very first game where they were down 3 with hammer against Homan/Morris and Weagle had a draw to the 8-ft in powerplay end to score 4 for the win.
https://www.facebook.com/teamepping...233145957081115
These kinds of things almost never happens in 4-person curling, for better or for worse.
//edit: Retornaz and Edin did play an epic mixed doubles-esque end of curling at Europeans. I don't think many strategically-minded Canadian teams would ever play like this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wIPsztzeD3Y
Last edited by curlingclips on 12-10-21 at 01:34PM
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12-10-21 12:07PM |
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oliviertoisel
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Registered: Feb 2021
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quote:
Originally posted by curlingclips
Mixed doubles is less strategy, more tactics, all execution. If you listen to interviews of people from 4-person curling who has tried mixed doubles, virtually all of them will say that they learned a lot and that it makes them be even better curlers, because they're forced to confront situations that they've always tried to avoid in 4-person curling. They actually have to learn how to solve all sorts of problems that they only see in 4-person game once in a blue moon.
I recommend giving this Weagle/Epping chat a listen. It talks about, among other things, their first time playing together, Weagle's very first game where they were down 3 with hammer against Homan/Morris and Weagle had a draw to the 8-ft in powerplay end to score 4 for the win.
https://www.facebook.com/teamepping...233145957081115
These kinds of things almost never happens in 4-person curling, for better or for worse.
//edit: Retornaz and Edin did play an epic mixed doubles-esque end of curling at Europeans. I don't think many strategically-minded Canadian teams would ever play like this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wIPsztzeD3Y
I'm not against mixed doubles; I think its value has been amply proven already. I also see its value as a learning tool, etc. But as a spectator I find it mind numbing.
The biggest issue is the precision. Watching people curling 50-75% is not enjoyable to me. The Olympic qualifier was made worse by some truly awful, straight ice, but I find overall it just isn't enjoyable to see so much missed. This isn't a knock against the players, they are doing exceptional given the circumstances. I am someone who likes to see the best given the best opportunity to play their best. But I also don't mind seeing a few blank ends when they're the result of exceptional triples or freezes, etc. The scoreboard is the least interesting part of the sport to me and mixed doubles is all about the score board.
Strategically I don't mean in any way to disparage the mental strategy of the players, my issue is with the mental strategy of the game. I find six rocks around the button far more boring than a blank end if the only reason there are six rocks is because there were six draws around the centre guard. Every rule of the game is designed to make it messy, because the powers that be equate messy with exciting. In my view the excitement factor has nothing to do with how messy a house is and all with how the house gets messy or clean. There are so many rules in MD that it constrains any kind of original thinking (not that it isn't possible).
I think the Edin/Retournaz end is the perfect example of why MD is so boring. That is a very cool end of curling; love it. But the reasons it is awesome are not because there's a whack of rocks around the centre. It is because teams are strategically choosing to go that route in a very clear game of chicken instead of being forced into it by overly fussy rules. You could also never have an end as entirely exciting as that one in MD because the number of rocks was central to how it happened. Also I don't agree Canadian teams wouldn't play that. Epping would. Isn't "Toronto style" named after that kind of play where a skip just calls 8 draws? It's just most Canadians don't play it just like Nik Edin doesn't often play it. And an Olympic Silver medal might argue Edin could benefit from playing it less. I'd also question just how wild the end is by the end because there's not much frozen and no guards. Edin is left with a fairly simple shot for one.
Last edited by oliviertoisel on 12-10-21 at 02:20PM
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12-10-21 02:18PM |
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curlingclips
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Oct 2019
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quote:
Originally posted by oliviertoisel
being forced into it by overly fussy rules
For better or for worse, most sports tend to evolve in the direction of encouraging, or even forcing offense.
I'm not actually an expert on basketball, but I think NBA is often cited as an example of a sport that rapidly evolves to encourage/force offense. Supposedly there was a time when a team can completely change their style once they're ahead, basically stalling, so they changed the rules to force them to keep playing.
Wrestling (maybe some but not all disciplines) also has a very interesting rule to encourage offense. From what I understand, if score is tied at the end of the period, the last person who scored wins.
Heck, you can argue that FGZ is, in a way, fussing with the rules to encourage/force offense. Some people were against introducing FGZ in curling. The Northern Alberta Curling Association even wrote an entire position paper to voice their opposition. I would love to read this if anyone has a copy they're willing to share (George Karrys has a copy, but he hasn't shared it as far as I'm aware of).
https://twitter.com/gonzocurl/statu...662630034137095
Your argument against MD's rules sounds to me like something that someone who was against FGZ would make. "Curlers shouldn't be forced to play 5-rock FGZ rule! It's more exciting if teams choose to strategically go that route out of their own free will!"
The irony is, of course, that MD's rules is actually way less fussy than 4-person curling. You absolutely can not take out a rock with the first 3 throws, period. Doesn't matter where the rock is, inside the house or outside the house, behind tee line or in front of tee line, you can't take it out. Doesn't matter whose rock it is, your opposition's or even your own, you can't take it out.
You've gotten used to FGZ rule by now, but if you really dig deeper, it's actually way more fussy than mixed doubles rules.
And it's not just the takeout rules either. In mixed doubles, since 2016, the two teammates are explicitly allowed to be anywhere on the ice. In 4-person curling, until today, one person is required to be in charge of the house. It's commonly referred as "holding the broom", but WCF rules only require that at least one foot is on the ice somewhere beyond the far hog line, and you can actually just do whatever with your hands/broom.
I will concede to you that I do love the pacing of 4-person curling sometimes. It's like designing a good fireworks show. You do want the quiet parts, punctuated with a few climactic moments. Mixed doubles is basically like blasting as many fireworks into the sky for as long as you can, so I totally understand why it becomes uninteresting to some people (myself included sometimes).
Last edited by curlingclips on 12-10-21 at 03:23PM
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12-10-21 02:55PM |
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hogged again
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Registered: Mar 2019
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Yes the mixed doubles is different and interesting at first. I watched all of the bubble mixed doubles last year and by the end it was so predictable it became tedious and I generally love a million rocks in the 4 foot. I think they need to alter the start rocks by allowing each team to place their 1 rock in 1 of 3 or 4 position choices.
Yes there was opposition to the FGZ at first and most of it was driven by club players. The argument was that you don't need FGZ in club play as the peel skill wasn't there so why change the rules just for the high level players who are 1% of all curlers. This was kind of shortsighted as if there was no FGZ the Brier/Worlds would be like the famous Martin-Stoughton Brier game where Martin scored 2 in the first and it was game over. That's not going to attract viewers or get non-curlers interested in taking up the game.
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12-10-21 03:26PM |
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curlingclips
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Oh, you don't have to tell me that FGZ is good for curling. What I really want to learn is the perspective of those people who were against it. Those people from Northern Alberta Curling Association wrote a 7-page anti-FGZ manifesto, and even proposed their own alternative rule set (the paper is thin enough that you can almost see the Table of Contents behind the front cover). I'm dying to read that paper, or something similar to it (i.e. not just a one-liner counterargument).
I would also love to learn why Canadians rejected 4 rock FGZ for a while and insisted on 3 rock FGZ instead. I understand that it makes sense to have an odd number instead of even, but I'd like to know what's so repulsively wrong with 4 that it needs to be rejected in favor of 3.
Last edited by curlingclips on 12-10-21 at 04:16PM
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12-10-21 03:48PM |
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hogged again
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quote:
Originally posted by curlingclips
I would also love to learn why Canadians rejected 4 rock FGZ for a while and insisted on 3 rock FGZ instead. I understand that it makes sense to have an odd number instead of even, but I'd like to know what's so repulsively wrong with 4 that it needs to be rejected in favor of 3.
It was a turf/ego fight. Canada didn't like the WCF dictating the rules so they tried to use their own version.
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12-10-21 05:10PM |
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nelski
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Oct 2004
Location: Twin Snowbanks
Posts: 2068 |
Well, no surprises in draw #one of the Women's Last Chance Olympic Qualifying event. Great Britain, Korea, and Japan all won their first games. The Turkey Estonia game was a high scoring one, 12-11 for EST. I wonder if MD strategy does spill into our 4 person game where there is just less inner turmoil when many rocks are in play - when it happens. In this game, the 4's were both earned. A deuce and a tri each were stolen in this match. Likely lots of jittery misses - but high score nonetheless.
__________________
Lots of major youth (<21) events. Nice for Murdoch... and us :-D.
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12-11-21 10:20AM |
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oliviertoisel
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High scoring games among the mid- or lower-tier teams is not new. We see the same at the nationals and Worlds. Also less surprising in a women's game as they can't throw triple run back quad takeouts halfway through an end. (One reason I think so many people prefer the women's game!)
quote:
Originally posted by curlingclips
For better or for worse, most sports tend to evolve in the direction of encouraging, or even forcing offense.
Shortened the quote for ease of reading the thread but appreciate the entirety of your post.
Just to be clear I'm in no way against MD. It's just not something I enjoy as much as the 4-person game (8 or 10 end). I'm sure "it's new" plays some part in my view, it does for all of us with change. But I've now watched multiple international and national tournaments over the past 4 years and have not grown to like it much more. That said, I still watch/enjoy enough to tune in now and then. And it's good for the sport's growth.
I've never had issue with FGZ, btw. I think 5>3>4 is a pretty clear ranking of that rule because the odd number is key. I also love seeing some of the Slams toy with no-tick (though they should commit to it, not have it be 8th and extra only). My specific issue with MD is the group of rules that specifically work to limit the variety of play, making it less exciting in my eyes. The no-takeout rule I see a lot of sense in but what I don't like is the pre-positioned rocks. I find that negates one of the most valuable aspects of the game: opening gambits. The team throwing first has no choice in MD but to draw the button and the end is basically set from there. Powerplay ends are often more interesting because they offer variety and teams at least have a choice of some kind to make. I like the suggestion above of allowing different rock positions in all ends. Or maybe just automate the guard and let team with hammer choose where to throw. This is just spit-balling but I think the discipline needs to loosen up. It's certainly the more free spirited of the disciplines but its rules are a straight jacket.
It's probably safe to bet that in 20 years the rules in both disciplines will have changed. So maybe I'll get my way!
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12-11-21 01:11PM |
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curlingclips
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Oct 2019
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quote:
Originally posted by oliviertoisel
The team throwing first has no choice
Gushue says that the reason mixed doubles is played the way that it does is because 5 rocks is too few. He suggests that mixed doubles should add one more thrown rock per team (6 per team instead of 5). Right now they're only using 7 rocks per team anyway, so might as well use the 8th rock and include that in the game instead of having it idling around on the ice.
He thinks that will add more variety without overly complicating things with opening options. I kind of like that, although that will obviously change the game quite drastically (it's almost like a reboot).
By the way, I probably have a rather unique perspective on things because I basically learned about curling in late 2017. I got exposed to the 4-person and mixed doubles disciplines pretty much at the same time, so I never found mixed doubles to be some odd variation of traditional curling. Both were new to me, everything was odd, and I just ended up liking mixed doubles more (for the most part).
And I'm not alone in this regard. In this 2018 Bruce Mouat interview, he says that mixed doubles is just plain more fun to play. Keep in mind that his first world curling championship ever is in mixed doubles, in 2013, so he has a rather unique perspective compared to most traditional curlers.
http://twine-time.blogspot.com/2018/05/bruce-mouat.html
He did (jokingly?) say that playing mixed doubles made his men's game worse, so there's that. It would be interesting to see if he has changed his mind on this issue, but he probably hasn't. He was already a pretty smart cookie even back then.
Last edited by curlingclips on 12-11-21 at 06:15PM
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12-11-21 02:54PM |
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nelski
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Registered: Oct 2004
Location: Twin Snowbanks
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Gulp. I guess everyone will start to bring their A-game when they are up against Turkey, who just downed Great Britain. Germany also lost, to Korea - not an upset - but a critical match. Two spots for 4 good teams - add in Japan, and maybe Turkey! I was surprised after such a strong Euro performance to see GB go down - buried by steals, which suggests melt down, and/or a fearless opponent.
__________________
Lots of major youth (<21) events. Nice for Murdoch... and us :-D.
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12-12-21 11:03AM |
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curlingclips
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Registered: Oct 2019
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3 Olympic spots for men's/women's in this qualifying event.
Not sure of playoff format, but schedule suggests:
1 gets a spot
2v3, winner gets a spot, loser gets challenged by 4 for a spot
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12-12-21 11:15AM |
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